The Athenaeum Forum

Does anyone has a digital copy of Walking Wounded by Jessica Casavant? I'm curious about this book.

I was going through the titles of an amazingly extensive uber list at the Academy, when I clicked the link for Walking Wounded ("Retired homicide detective/ landlady [90's]") and the link failed. After not finding the story in neither the Academy nor the Athenaeum, I went to Google and was surprised to find that the word 'plagiarism' was suggested when I entered the name of the author. It turned out that her books were almost direct copies from Nora Roberts' straight romance novels:

http://www.amazon.com/Walking-Wounded-J ... addOneStar

One of the top links in the search results points to a very interesting discussion among lesbian fiction writers about characterisation, what differentiates a lesbian character from a straight character and one of the posters mentioned this case and that by simply changing the name (not really necessary as we unfortunately know), pronouns and sex of the male lead, it was possible to convince readers, a publisher and reviewers that the character was a lesbian.

http://lesbianfiction.17.forumer.com/a/ ... 3&start=30

I've never read any Nora Roberts' books, but if her typical male hero is the romantic, sensitive kind (thinking Alice Hoffman's Practical Magic here), I can see how it can be easily transformed into a lesbian character, since to begin with, he is not a real man , but an idealized fantasy and therefore shares a lot with the writer herself.

On the other hand, one of the first novels (also published) I read online by a very known author confused me immensely because I could not visualize a woman in one of the leads. The story was basically a big old-fashioned romantic cliché (I believe intentionally) with a mysterious, wounded, noble and sacrificing (female) hero who would literally die without the love of the heroine. In this case, you only need to change the pronouns (yes, the woman has a male name) and you have a heterosexual romance novel, but one which I don't believe would ever be published, since the story is too common.

I wish I had read the plagiarized book without knowing about its back story just to see how I would have react to it.

What do you think? Do you think you would be able to spot a character that was originally written as male?

I've also run across a few lesbian fiction books (online and published) that did make me shake my head a bit - even to the steamy parts where with the change of a word or two it would have fit quite nicely into a Harlequin Temptation novel (hey ... don't get me wrong, I know someone who wrote Harlequins and used to read her stuff )

The Walking Wounded situation is out and out plagiarism - direct lifting of plot, characters and text. But sometimes there are other reasons that a female lead might read like a male:

Write what you're familiar with:
For those of us who didn't have a decent backlog of lesbian fiction to read as youngsters (or weren't aware that such a thing existed), the books that were available were heterosexual couples doing hetrosexual things and if you were reading bodice rippers (hysterical romances if you prefer) then the stereotypes of the brooding or rakish alpha male and plucky female were what you were used to. Some people start by writing not what they know, but what they are familiar with through reading - it's all about the formula with certain genres like romance. You can only hope that authors will grow out of it as they find their own voice and style and as the availability/variety of lesbian fiction continues to grow.

And sometimes ... writers just suck:
I will always remember a book that came very highly recommended by a number of friends who kept insisting the author was the next Stephen King and was on the cutting edge by having a strong, independant female character who outsmarted and kicked the serial killer's butt (with the help of the ghosts/zombies of his past female victims - yeah, I know ... even I had a bit of a hard time suspending my disbelief about that part). I read the book and found it to be pretty much of a gross-out/slasher book where the "strong independant female character" read like a man. Giving the character a female name, pronouns and a pert and bouncy set of breasts didn't hide the fact that the author had no clue how to write from a female character's perspective. He was actually a pretty crappy writer and as far as I know, he never did become the next Stephen King.

You can check Walking Wounded by Jessica Casavant thanks to the time machine... errr... archive.org's Internet Archive Wayback Machine. Here's the link:

http://web.archive.org/web/200312181346 ... unded.html

Wow! I had no idea that this service even exists! Thank you so much!!! I confess I'm much more excited about the service than the book, but I'm looking forward to read it anyway.

Oh, and the whole Jessica Casavant thing, OMG , is much more fun than I expected! There's a full dyke drama surround this case!

The Jessica Casavant case begs a few comments, most notably (and forgive me for going all listy on you, but structure's never killed anyone. Unless it's a building falling on your head.):

1) How bizarre that she would go to the trouble of copying over an entire book. I had written approximately 100 pages of my newest tale (which should be available to the Athenaeum as soon as it has been proof-read) when I realized that the point of view would not work. I then had to set about re-writing the entire thing, using my previous material as a guideline. From this experience I can tell you that however much work it is to write a story from scratch, it's a billion times worse to try and incorporate previous writing. Not to mention that if it's a style different from your own, the going must be so much harder.

2) If she had to choose an existing writer, why exactly Nora Roberts? Firstly, why choose a writer so commonly popular that your chances of being caught out are considerably slimmer than if you chose something less commercial? And then, if you did want to hitch your wagon to someone else's horse, why not choose something out of the ordinary? I'm not impugning the hard work of Ms Roberts, but her novels are fairly formulaic (which is exactly why she sells so well, and good for her). Hey - if you're cheating anyway you might as well go the extra mile and pick someone like Alice Hoffman, right? I suppose it's a matter of personal taste (but plagiarism is always in bad taste anyway).

As for the matter of men moonlighting as lesbians:
In my opinion, lesbians tend to be slightly more balanced in terms of masculine and feminine than the average heterosexual woman. By this I do not mean that all gay women are flannel-toting caricatures, but that there is a slightly less defined "box" for us to move within. So, if a man is written in an idealised manner, such as seeker pointed out, then that character will incorporate both masculine and feminine, and thus have a good chance of resonating as a lesbian. I can't say that I would notice something like this, if it were well done.

At the end of the day I do think that it's about individuals rather than gender. Characterisation needs to be a major concern for any writer, and I do sometimes find that this aspect is ignored in favour of the much easier type-casting. Your character needs not be the most blindingly original one ever, but it's the attention to detail that makes her/him stand out.

Plagiarism is something I often worry about when I'm writing. There are only so many different plot situations and developments out there, and it's almost inevitable that a story will be reused eventually. (Although not quite at the N.Roberts/Walking Wounded level, obviously )

How many Ubers exist at this point, July 2009? I haven't a clue myself, but I'm sure it must be numbered in the thousands. I have a feeling that no matter what kind of fun plot idea I get, someone else has already used it.

Mec wrote:Write what you're familiar with: For those of us who didn't have a decent backlog of lesbian fiction to read as youngsters (or weren't aware that such a thing existed), the books that were available were heterosexual couples doing hetrosexual things (...)

That's very true.

Mec wrote:Some people start by writing not what they know, but what they are familiar with through reading - it's all about the formula with certain genres like romance. You can only hope that authors will grow out of it as they find their own voice and style and as the availability/variety of lesbian fiction continues to grow.

Yes, but don't forget that some writers continue to write formulaic stories because that's what they (we) want to do. The world of online storytelling isn't different from the '3D' world in that some writers are avantgarde and some aren't.


Norsebard

Yes, but don't forget that some writers continue to write formulaic stories because that's what they (we) want to do.

I wouldn't say it's only what they want to do. Those types of stories still exist because some people want to read them. You can't blame a reader for oft-times preferring to read something slightly less taxing - let's face it, a formulaic story is easier and faster to get through, and some people simply do read to relax. However, I do find that as a writer that sometimes makes it difficult. You want to be true to yourself, but naturally you also want to appeal to the largest audience possible, otherwise your work doesn't get out there! The balance is a fine one, and difficult to maintain if you don't lean towards the obvious.

The very fact that we feel we have to give warnings for character death, het sex scenes and the such is a sad sign of the times - those things don't suit the formula. Sad, I think, to put a limit on where a writer's mind can go, albeit good or bad, when it's just one stop on the journey to the conclusion.

But that's just my opinion.

Just for kicks, and cos I was extremely bored the other day, I checked out the listing for 'Walking Wounded' on Amazon, and this book is going for about $125 for a used copy. What the heck kind of lesson does that teach us about plagarism if we're going to reward people who steal others works?

*disengage rant mode*

Anyhoo...food for thought.
Otter

k_alexander wrote:Those types of stories still exist because some people want to read them. You can't blame a reader for oft-times preferring to read something slightly less taxing - let's face it, a formulaic story is easier and faster to get through, and some people simply do read to relax. However, I do find that as a writer that sometimes makes it difficult. You want to be true to yourself, but naturally you also want to appeal to the largest audience possible, otherwise your work doesn't get out there!

Very true - a formulaic story is easier and faster to write as well, and that's why a lot of us newbies tend to start out doing those stories. Some of us never go beyond them

I have to admit that at this point in my 'career', I prefer to keep writing that type of story, even though the cookie-cutter plot of the typical, bog-standard Ubers hardly leaves any room for experiments. Later, when I have more experience, I may branch out, so to speak.

As an aside, six of my stories are published here on the Athenaeum, and those I've received the most feedback on are the three regular Ubers.

k_alexander wrote:The very fact that we feel we have to give warnings for character death, het sex scenes and the such is a sad sign of the times - those things don't suit the formula. Sad, I think, to put a limit on where a writer's mind can go, albeit good or bad, when it's just one stop on the journey to the conclusion.

But that's just my opinion.

Oh, I agree with you there.

---

Otter - that's just nuts!


Norsebard

Very true - a formulaic story is easier and faster to write as well, and that's why a lot of us newbies tend to start out doing those stories. Some of us never go beyond them

It's not a bad place to start, considering that there are such wonderful and complete characters to play with But the line between uber and original is so thin - just poke your little toe over

and those I've received the most feedback on are the three regular Ubers.

This is exactly my point, though, in that it seems one can only branch out so far before you lose that audience.

You know, I think I'm just jealous I really can't write those stories, and they just have such a large fan base. Every time I try, I end up with something screwy or bizarre.

k_alexander wrote:This is exactly my point, though, in that it seems one can only branch out so far before you lose that audience.

You know, I think I'm just jealous I really can't write those stories, and they just have such a large fan base. Every time I try, I end up with something screwy or bizarre.

Originals have a large fanbase too judging from the top-25s that come up. And the Athenaeum is good in that way because there is no separate category for the ubers (even if it drives me crazy at times...)

And feedback... that's a whole different kettle of fish. There are a lot of lurkers that read a story and never send an e-mail or make a recommendation. Don't get me wrong, lurking is a great thing and it is a big step to send an e-mail to an author. However, it does feel sometimes that the readers of originals tend to be more of the lurker type than the big uber fanbase; maybe because ubers have been established for longer?

And sure it is easier to take up the characterisation of the usual pair of suspects and expand from there. After all most of us are quite familiar with the favourite duo, plus their characterisations in the series are rather generic in some ways, so it is easier to expand from them. Still even in the ubers, characterisations really can go any odd way. But then again characterisations in Classics can also go in many ways (I don't know. I used not to notice all that much in Classic XWP but when reading in fandoms where I have not watched the original series, it becomes really really obvious).

I admit it I'm a lurker and I take it that I'm not the only one Funny I didn't know that there was a "name" characterizing my reading of the stories on The Athenaeum.

OK - I'm a lurker and the reason .. well I always thought that the bard of a really good story must have had a load of mails and comments by the time I get to read the story and even though a "pat on the back" is always nice I guess that my thought would be that even a bard can get "fed up". But I take it I might be wrong ?

And to finish my line of thought. I don't think that it would do anyone any good to comment on a story that I don't like whether it's the storyline or the quality of writing that I don't agree with as it's just my personal point of view and other readers might enjoy the story that I dislike. I take it that negative comments might just - alt least in the long run - take the joy out of writing for a bard ... and why do that.

As to plagiarism or reuse of a storyline and/or a character I find that quite alright as long as we are talking of a little dabbling on the net by posting stories on a site like The Athenaeum. After all that's how it all started is it not ? On the other hand I feel that when a story is taken to the commercial market plagiarism is out ! If you wish to make money on a story you got to respect copyrights.

ukendt001 wrote:OK - I'm a lurker and the reason .. well I always thought that the bard of a really good story must have had a load of mails and comments by the time I get to read the story and even though a "pat on the back" is always nice I guess that my thought would be that even a bard can get "fed up". But I take it I might be wrong ?

I can't speak for anyone else but yeah, I'd say you were wrong. I'd guess most bards love feedback. Personally, I prefer feedback that's either fun/funny or detailed (as the former amuses me and the latter shows how passionately a reader has enjoyed my work) but any and all feedback is gratefully accepted.

Norsebard wrote:The world of online storytelling isn't different from the '3D' world in that some writers are avantgarde and some aren't.

Although it gives me immense and unexpected pleasure to read something different like A Lexicon for the Sunday Morning Sleeper, I also find great enjoyment in good traditional storytelling.

I personally prefer original work, but I think the whole Uber (my definition: physical resemblance) thing fascinating because I read so many wonderful variations to the formula. And I would think that the best thing about not being dependent of a publisher (especially of romance novels) is that the writers can play anyway they want.

Regarding the feedback, I used to write to the authors of the stories I liked only when I had constructive criticism to give, also thinking that they've already received loads of congratulatory messages. Only recently I started writing simply to say that I enjoyed their stories (and send an additional non-verbal message: "please keep writing!").

k_alexander wrote:The very fact that we feel we have to give warnings for character death, het sex scenes and the such is a sad sign of the times - those things don't suit the formula. Sad, I think, to put a limit on where a writer's mind can go, albeit good or bad, when it's just one stop on the journey to the conclusion.

I remember the first time I read an angst warning and I was like 'duh! Aren't all good stories supposed to have some tension?', but then I discovered that meant pages and pages and pages of misery! Now whenever I see something like that, I quickly locate the page down key or don't read at all. To be honest until I read your comment it never occurred to me that I might be restricting myself as a reader. One of the first stories that I read on this site didn't have any warning at all, but had everything that I'm avoiding now: a lot of angst, death, murder, suicide, unhappy ending, the whole enchilada. And I loved it! It was so over the top, so melodramatic, it was terrific! I'd never read again, but I'll never forget it.

One solution for this issue could be the creation of an Enter at your own risk label that would free the writers to do whatever they feel like and give the readers a forewarning that anything might happen.

Yay for all lurkers! Probably most readers are lurkers to an extent or other. Certainly one would not be expected to send an e-mail for every story one reads, even if it would be best if that happened. Sometimes the story is just not riveting enough to get one to write an e-mail, other times it's just that one is not in the mood. I have found I love the Athenaeum recommendations; it's quick, it's easy and one can be as anonymous as one likes. It is not the same as feedback but at the same time for someone who reads a lot of stories online sending an e-mail saying "this was a great read, thank you" becomes a bit trite. Unless the author has a little bit (preferably at the end) saying "please tell me what you think or just tell me you liked it", then recommendations feel in a way more productive. At least with recommendations it does feel like you are advertising a story you like and more people will read and appreciate it. And on the other side of the coin, some authors for whatever reason (and I am not criticising here, one is free to do what one wants in this case) do not answer e-mails, so it feels like you are being a burden by writing to them and clogging their inbox.

Hey warnings are good! I love warnings! Sometimes you get a better idea of what the story is gonna be from the warning than from the snippet or description. I have yet to find a warning that made me not read a story (oh but if a warning was invented for bad grammar... that would be awesome!). Plus warnings help me choose a story according to what I want to read at that time. Sometimes angst and stuff is just not what I want to read. Sometimes I want something funny or a story with violence and adventure. And as for the various sex warnings, they do help as well. Not to avoid a story but to know how much scrolling down I will have to do to get to the next bit of action. It might sound odd or old-fashioned but there is a better chance of me scrolling down a sex-scene than a long-winded description of a potted plan. It's a personal preference and warnings help me to know what I will be reading without taking away any of the suspence of it.

k_alexander wrote:But the line between uber and original is so thin - just poke your little toe over

OK - I'm a lurker and the reason .. well I always thought that the bard of a really good story must have had a load of mails and comments by the time I get to read the story and even though a "pat on the back" is always nice I guess that my thought would be that even a bard can get "fed up". But I take it I might be wrong ?

Well, there are many different types of feedback, some more constructive than others, but personally I don't think I'll ever get 'fed up' with receiving it.

Most of us bards are just regular Joes or Janes who write for fun, and feedback from the readers is the only way for us to know if someone has actually read what we've spent weeks/months writing.

Seeker wrote:One solution for this issue could be the creation of an Enter at your own risk label that would free the writers to do whatever they feel like and give the readers a forewarning that anything might happen.

Hmmm... that's an interesting idea, Seeker.


Norsebard

Some more thoughts on plagiarism...

My experiment with Walking Wounded is over: it's too bland for my taste. I think I was able to read a third of the story and my conclusion is that I wouldn't have suspect that the main character was a man originally. And not because, as I had imagined previously, the hero was a sensitive guy, but because there's very little character development and I've seen a lot of stories with similar flat lesbian characters.

I've also skimmed through the Nora Roberts' book and it's unbelievable how many blocks of text she copied. And yet the stories are not identical and I'll never understand why she didn't simply write her own story.

k_alexander wrote: If she had to choose an existing writer, why exactly Nora Roberts?

I wonder the same thing myself. Maybe she was a fan ? Or maybe she thought that the public for the books would not intersect and, in this case, she was partially right since it took (I believe) 2 years for her to be caught.

ukendt001 wrote:As to plagiarism or reuse of a storyline and/or a character I find that quite alright as long as we are talking of a little dabbling on the net by posting stories on a site like The Athenaeum. After all that's how it all started is it not ? On the other hand I feel that when a story is taken to the commercial market plagiarism is out ! If you wish to make money on a story you got to respect copyrights.

It's not so simple. I'm not expert, but after reading a long and very heated discussion among writers regarding a recent case, I can tell you that fanfiction is not plagiarism because no writer claimed that Xena and Gabriela were their original creation. It's copyright violation though because the characters belong to someone else and the community is using without permission (but the Xena copyright owners wisely ignore it). And regardless of having money involved or not, I can't believe that any writer would accept theft of their work without protest and indignation. And us readers must defend their rights and be quick to report plagiarism to them, otherwise the best will stop putting their stories altogether.

ukendt001 wrote:
As to plagiarism or reuse of a storyline and/or a character I find that quite alright as long as we are talking of a little dabbling on the net by posting stories on a site like The Athenaeum. After all that's how it all started is it not ? On the other hand I feel that when a story is taken to the commercial market plagiarism is out ! If you wish to make money on a story you got to respect copyrights.

With regard to posting stories on the Internet, this lack of economic profit allows great freedom and fun in what we could call, not plagiarism, but “variations”, that is, adaptations of great classical novels, new books, films, stories previously posted, etc. I am thinking now of “Charlotte Bell” by Angelrad or Casablanca by CN Winters.

P.S. Sorry for my bad English. Maybe I could get to beta my interventions in the Forum

ukendt001 wrote:OK - I'm a lurker and the reason .. well I always thought that the bard of a really good story must have had a load of mails and comments by the time I get to read the story and even though a "pat on the back" is always nice I guess that my thought would be that even a bard can get "fed up". But I take it I might be wrong ?

And to finish my line of thought.... I take it that negative comments might just - alt least in the long run - take the joy out of writing for a bard ... and why do that.

I can of course only comment from my own point of view, but feedback is always welcome. However, what really stands out is the constructive feedback. I'm always pleased to hear that someone has enjoyed something, but a reader who elaborates and tells me exactly why makes my day. It's not about being praised (though that's lovely too), but about understanding whether you've made yourself clear, and what is successful in terms of technique.

Regarding negative feedback, I would be mildly homicidal if someone wrote just to tell me what was wrong with my story - not because I think there are no faults or mistakes, but because I'd wonder why they'd bothered reading it in the first place if they didn't enjoy it. However, if they'd written to tell me that overall they'd liked the story, but that certain points could have been different, or that certain mistakes had been made, that would be a point to ponder.

As a device, the Reader Recommendation is great for more than one reason. It's probably not as effective to let the writer know you've read her/his story as an e-mail, but a recommendation is the best way to keep a writer's story top of mind (after all, the recommendations and newly posted are the first to be checked, I should think). More people should use it.

Hey warnings are good! I love warnings! ...It's a personal preference and warnings help me to know what I will be reading without taking away any of the suspence of it.

It's a difficult one for me. After all, without that little PWP tag to warn me, I'd be reading a lot of first pages before going "heyyyy, where'd the storyline go?" and stomping off to look for something else However, it's unfortunate that due to this some readers are missing out on things they might like if they looked past the tag. Take, for instance, http://xenafiction.net/scrolls/spyrel_pretium_silenti1.html by Spyrel. The disclaimer mentions rape and excessive violence, neither of which is my bag of chips, but if I'd chosen to heed the warnings, I'd have missed out on one fantastic fic.

I don't know what the middle way is with regards to warnings - perhaps broader categories - but it saddens me to think that some reader will skip my story because I have to have that dang "sex" tag on (even though it's only five pages and I try to get through it as cleanly as possible) or because I mention swearing (of which you'll hear more in a new blockbuster movie anyway).

seeker wrote:Some more thoughts on plagiarism...
It's not so simple. I'm not expert, but after reading a long and very heated discussion among writers regarding a recent case, I can tell you that fanfiction is not plagiarism because no writer claimed that Xena and Gabriela were their original creation. It's copyright violation though because the characters belong to someone else and the community is using without permission (but the Xena copyright owners wisely ignore it). And regardless of having money involved or not, I can't believe that any writer would accept theft of their work without protest and indignation. And us readers must defend their rights and be quick to report plagiarism to them, otherwise the best will stop putting their stories altogether.

Nothing is ever as simple as in the universe of fanfiction - well that's just my experience If You feed your self only on fanfiction of the alternative and romantic nature you would most certainly get the idea that the world consists mostly of beautiful lesbian women and that the world at large respect and look positively on woman/woman relationships. (Not that I'm complaining I live in a rather liberal part of the world.).

Somehow that's very much the attitude I have towards copyright infringements in the world of fanfiction. I do agree that copyright is copyright and in the word of the law it's unimportant whether moneys involved or no. In all other aspect of life I would argue against violation of copyright but in this wold of fantasy and make believe I somehow deviate from my normal righteousness and take the point of view - "who will it hurt" . So from my point of view all you bards should just get on with your writing and invite all us readers to join you in enjoying your stories. Don't worry to much about copyright but remember it's always nice to credit the author/songwriter that you use for inspiration.

And then I have a confession to make - I have entered the Xenavers quite by accident. I have never watched an episode of the series and I have no wish to do so. I'm quite sure that I enjoy all the Uber/Original stories with the little blond and the big raven haired beauties and the adventures or romances that the bards lets them experience just the same as a "real" Xenafan. But I must say that sometimes I get a bit bored with the standard phrasing used to describe the girls - who said that the hair or eye color, hight or the nicknames used must always be the same if you are to writhe an uber story ? Here you bards might take copyright into consideration and just set your mind free and give us a new "picture" for our mind movie. (OK - I might be completely out of line here. If thats the case then just writhe me off as a misguided lurker).